WGN-TV shuts out The Museum of Classic Chicago Television
For anyone whose childhood included countless hours of Ray Rayner and His Friends, Bozo’s Circus, and Frazier Thomas hosting Garfield Goose and Friends and Family Classics, The Museum of Classic Chicago Television (online at www.FuzzyMemories.TV) has been a gift and a treasure, preserving fragments of our past that might otherwise be lost forever.
Now, however, it appears that Tribune Company superstation WGN-TV has flexed its muscle and forced the little nonprofit to pull all WGN-TV material from the museum website.
The reported reason? WGN’s “exclusive agreement” with Chicago’s Museum of Broadcast Communications.
This is just plain stingy and stinky. No museum should be given an exclusive right to preserve an aspect of our collective past — especially when the material is as freely sharable as video in 2009.
It’s beyond disappointing that a station so involved in our lives when our basic values were being formed has since grown so proprietary and ungenerous.
The Museum of Classic Chicago Television suggests a polite and respectful appeal to:
Ms. Marty Wilke
General Manager, WGN-TV
2501 West Bradley Place
Chicago, IL 60618-4718
(773) 528-2311
mwilke@tribune.com
If I could, I would add a nip from Chelveston the Duck.
The owner of the Fuzzy Memories site is using not only WGN's material, but all video clips displayed on the site, without permission from the owners of said material. The difference is the WGN actually cares about protecting their exclusive rights to their intellectual property (as per the law) and has had a long history of doing so. If WGN does not want to give permission to a third party (any third party) to publish its property on the internet, then WGN has the legal right of refusal. If you have had any dealings with the "curator" of this "museum" (and if you haven't, consider yourself lucky), I seriously doubt your story would lean so heavily in "Fuzzy's" favor. He operates right out of the classic Chicago Politics playbook. If he smells old tapes on your blood, you will be hounded, harassed and yes, stalked -- ask a few people who work in the TV business in Chicago about that. He does have an interesting site with a lot of fun video clips to see, but certainly does come across as someone who takes himself more than a little too seriously (no, I do not know this individual personally). I sense an out-of-line "entitlement mindset" on his part and a "need" to be the hero who reclaimed and saved all of these precious lost commercial breaks and bumpers, and he will stop at nothing to rescue them. And I suspect his attitude and approach are the bigger problem and the reason some people refuse to "cooperate" with his valiant mission.
Check around and ask people about their dealings with this guy. Trust me, it'll be interesting.
I have seen this argument about WGN's rights a lot today. I don't dispute their rights. I just think everyone would benefit if they acted more magnanimously and relaxed their tight grip on the Ray Rayner and Frazier Thomas gold.
Dear Joe,
"You will be stalked?" Watch what you say here my friend...accusing someone as being a stalker is a serious charge!
I KNOW the curator...and he is NOT a stalker! He is someone who is running a non profit organization and trying to preserve Chicago's outstanding TV history.
He asks via his wesite for individuals to send a tax deductible payment to his organization, which is a registered non profit organization in the state of Illinois. Obviously, they see the MCCTV as a legitimate organization. If they thought that he was a crackpot, do you really think the state would have given the museum non-profit status?
Second, the MCCTV is interested in collecting videos made by average joes like you and me-from VHS recordings and Betas. Therefore, the MCCTV DOES NOT NEED ANY RECORDINGS FROM THE STATIONS THEMSELVES! And again, NO ONE who has old tapes that meet the criteria of the MCCTV has to give them to the museum!
Let's make sure we get our facts straight before calling individuals anything!
And if there are any more questions about the MCCTV that I can answer, I will.
And for the record...I am NOT an employee of the MCCTV-but I DO appreciate what they do!
I have heard he might call people without first being introduced to follow a lead on some rare footage. He might leave a message. If he doesn't hear anything in two weeks, he might call them back.
Some stalker.
I get stalked more by people selling magazines at my door.
"Joe",
First of all, who the heck are you? You make personal attacks like this but then don't identify yourself publically?
Yeah, talk to other Chicago TV people - talk to Mike Leiderman (formerly of WFLD and WMAQ), talk to Terry Anzur (formerly of WBBM), talk to Don Ferris (formerly of WSNS and WTTW), all of whom I have personally transferred material from their private collections for, and whom are very happy with me. Here's a direct quote from Terry Anzur for you - "I've already donated some tapes to "fuzzy memories" and found Rick Klein to be a class act all the way, in contrast to MBC,"
Talk to Rich Koz, who I have asked and received permission from for posting his old WFLD material, and who I also provided a copy of a rare weather audition of his, which he was very happy to get.
Talk to Norman Mark (formerly of WFLD) who is working with me to help transfer his material and won't have any complaints about me.
Talk to producers at WLS-TV - they thought highly enough of my material to use it in a recent retrospective for Harry Potterfield, talk to Frank Chambers, Jr., a former engineer at WCIU and now currently at WFLD - who I've done work for - he will give me a glowing recommendation - I could go on...
Talk to The Korosa Family (of Eddie Korosa's Polka Party fame) who I am transferring their tapes for.
Talk to WGN's Larry Potash, Pat Tomasulo, Valerie Warner, Steve Sanders, Robert Jordan, Jeff Hoover, Marcella Raymond, Mike Toomey - they've all expressed their support for what I'm doing by by becoming a "Fan" of The Museum of Classic Chicago Television on Facebook.
Talk to former WGN alums Barbara Shikami (producer on Ray Rayner), Forrest Respess (producer on Nightbeat), Larry Roderick (WGN News).
Talk to Creator/Producer of WTTW's long-running "Image Union" - Tom Weinberg, current WCIU GM Molly Kelly, Former head of WFLD Stacey Marks Bronner, CBS-2's Rob Johnson, Carol Fowler (WBBM News Director), Sun-Times reporters Mary Mitchell, Paige Wiser, and Steve Huntley.
Talk to Ben Hollis of "Wild Chicago" fame, WLS' Alan Krashesky, Legendary Voice of God Ken Nordine, WLS's Janet Davies, John Landecker, Tribune Entertainment reporter Phil Rosenthal... I could go on for awhile.
All of the above are fans of FuzzyMemories.TV on our Facebook page.
(I'm not belaying any confidences since this is publicly viewable information on our page - not a secret ballot)
If I have such a bad reputation, how come none of these people have ever heard of it? Hmmm?
I don't want to waste any more time proving myself to a mystery man, so I'll end here.
Rick Klein
President / Curator
The Museum of Classic Chicago Television
www.FuzzyMemories.TV
You can ask me about my dealings with Rick, and I'll tell you right now I was never hounded, harassed, or stalked. He is a class act all the way.
"Shuts out"? When someone owns something, just because you are non for profit doesn't change what the copyright rules are with material you don't own. It's up to WGN as to how they want to deal with what they own and if they don't want you to post it, suck it up.
I fear the day is coming when nobody will be able to post any material like this (not just from WGN) which is very unfortunate. While I've visited the site and think it's cool, this guy is taking himself a little too seriously. The question isn't whether or not someone appreciates what the site does (after all I am one of those people) but if the site can provide the service within the boundaries of the law. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.
I can't speak for anyone else but I'd be a little upset if I had to field 'one' call at my job about posting an old Family Classics bumper for Boys Town. In the spirit of being 'polite and respectful', this is kinda spooky and this memo is as misguided as it is inappropriate.
If Ron feels so strongly about this material then maybe he should try and work with WGN and the MBC to donate it instead of trying to compete with them. The original note is presented in a very professional manner yet when he is challenged in one of the replies above, the resulting response is quite petulant, naming off people on a public website that anyone could be friends with if they just sent them a request. In all fairness, I have never dealt with him so I don't know if he is a 'class act' or a jerk but judging by what has been posted above I can see both sides. Clearly he wants to have the same sort of exclusivity with this material that he is protesting so this is kind of hypocritical.
He just sounds like a blowhard who is whining because he's not getting his way.
"Chicago Radio Listener",
I admit the response I made the other day was a bit petulant. I was a little steamed, as I'm sure you would be, if someone was attacking your character or reputation. How would you feel, especially when the person was effectively anonymous? Isn't that a bit cowardly?
As for the rest of your comments - I don't know what to say man, I really don't. I try not to take myself too seriously. Most of everything on the site is written with a sense of fun in mind. I'm aware that there's a lot of kitchy, low-budget, stuff on there. By no means am I equating it with Shakespeare. I take it seriously only in a historical sense - that it is something that appeared on Chicago TV at one time and deserves to be represented, the good and the bad, the boring, and the interesting. And even stuff that I thought was completely boring, someone has found memory provoking or interesting in some way. So you never know. It continually surprises me. Here's a final point on this for you: 500 years from now, which do you think that people studying this time would rather examine - studio master tapes, or off-air recordings that show TV exactly as it aired on a particular date?
This message about the unfairness with WGN was one of the few serious things I've talked about. And even that, if I had taken it too seriously I would have used Carmina Burana or something instead of a lite music version of Mack the Knife. I kept it polite and about what I thought was unfair. If you don't agree, then move on.
""Shuts out"? When someone owns something, just because you are non for profit doesn't change what the copyright rules are with material you don't own. It's up to WGN as to how they want to deal with what they own and if they don't want you to post it, suck it up. "
I agree, being a non-profit doesn't change what the copyright laws are (well except for perhaps providing more grounds for Fair Use) - however it can make a difference in terms of proving to people that you have good intentions, or that your intentions can be every bit as noble as another museum's are. WGN can do whatever they want to do - I've never demanded that they do anything. I'm only trying to convince them. I had tried working behind the scenes for many, many months - sent a polite letter via FedEx to the GM, left her a couple messages, and sent her an e-mail - but no response was ever given. Not even so much as a "No, and here's why..." or a chance for me to express my case directly. So this public campaign is really the end result of a long time of trying to discuss this with them in the past. I felt like there was nothing else to try to do. If they didn't believe me, maybe if they got 100 letters from people who agreed with me they might reconsider. That's all.
"I fear the day is coming when nobody will be able to post any material like this (not just from WGN) which is very unfortunate. While I've visited the site and think it's cool, this guy is taking himself a little too seriously. The question isn't whether or not someone appreciates what the site does (after all I am one of those people) but if the site can provide the service within the boundaries of the law. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. "
YouTube has worked in a certain fashion since it's inception, completely legally, and shows no signs of stopping. They don't directly police anything that is uploaded. If someone uploads something, it is only taken down if the copyright holder says that he wants it taken down. If it wasn't for this system, a plethora of great material would never get to be seen. Why? Because for a lot of this old obscure stuff like commercials, PSA's, promos, bumpers, etc, the companies involved have dissolved, or were sold 2 or 3 times, or in many cases, they simply don't care if someone posts a clip from 30 years ago. Now if someone *asked* them first, before posting some little silly clip, their lawyers might field the question and say "No!" just as a reflex, without even considering if it would make a difference or not. I think the way that YouTube does things works out for everyone involved. People who like nostalgic rareities are happy (for the most part), and rights-holders are happy because they still have the ability to control what gets posted if they choose. YouTube has even made it easier for rights-holders to enforce if they want to. You can submit material to them which they will digitally scan and will automatically detect postings of it and delete them without any human interaction.
"If Ron feels so strongly about this material then maybe he should try and work with WGN and the MBC to donate it instead of trying to compete with them. The original note is presented in a very professional manner yet when he is challenged in one of the replies above, the resulting response is quite petulant, naming off people on a public website that anyone could be friends with if they just sent them a request. In all fairness, I have never dealt with him so I don't know if he is a 'class act' or a jerk but judging by what has been posted above I can see both sides. Clearly he wants to have the same sort of exclusivity with this material that he is protesting so this is kind of hypocritical. "
Sorry, but you are simply incorrect. I do not insist on exclusivity for anything. I have offered many times to WGN, DVD copies of everything from their station I have in our archives. If they want to display it on their website, or give it to the MBC to display on their website, they're free to do so. All I ask in return is that I am allowed to continue to be able to do what I love to do on my own site, and that perhaps some small notation is made of what the original source was. I feel my presentation is better, more complete, more as a "fan" of the material would set up. I care about getting the little details correct - notating who the announcer was in a clip, how it relates to a bigger picture of the history, or listing the exact air date of the clip. Not only this, but even if I donated everything I had to WGN, they would likely only post a few things, and not think a lot of it was interesting or post-worthy, while I and others would.
Why do you assume that I am in competition with the MBC? Why do I even *have* to be in competition with them? 95% of the material in our archives is different than the MBC's. (to be fair, there is likely some overlap because I'm sure some things that I've gotten at conventions or through the trading circuit have come from the MBC originally. If the MBC doesn't want me to post those clips though, I would gladly agree to that. I'm sure the MBC has a few things in their archives that were donated by someone else but which originally came from me, so it goes both ways)
So I have stuff that the MBC doesn't have, because I have searched out and found it myself in most cases, transferred from original tape recordings. Different Bozo episodes than the MBC, different Ray Rayner episodes or clips, promos, bumpers, and other off-air junk that the MBC isn't generally interested in.
I am not the cause of the MBC's problems. I have nothing against them, except when they try to work against me. They should focus on getting their place built, proving their relevance, and building relationships. They shouldn't be writing letters trying to get me shut down. That's just sour grapes and makes them look petty.
To sum up: My point was simply that I have formed a local TV museum, worked very hard on it, took the time and expense to make it completely non-profit, and was hoping that WGN would see that and let me display some of their material. I think it's unfair to grant exclusivity to a single museum. (That's like only allowing the Field Museum to show mummies) You're not supposed to play favorites with a museum. That's just my opinion, and if I want to continue expressing it and trying to convince others of that, then that's my choice.
If you want to, send me an e-mail at fuzzy@fuzzymemories.tv - I can give you my cell phone number and I'd be happy to speak with you about this some more. There are a lot of different points that can take a long time to express adequately through text.
Sincerely,
Rick "Fuzzy" Klein
President / Curator
The Museum of Classic Chicago Television
www.FuzzyMemories.TV
I said this on another site, so if you've already seen it, forgive the cut and paste. Here's my take:
It is WGN's absolute right to do as they see fit with their property. No one questions that. The question I'm sure a lot of people are asking is, "Why are they taking this particular tack?". Fuzzy Memories is not trying to profit in any way from WGN's older stuff, it's merely giving people a place to view these fond recollections of their childhood. WGN should actually be THANKING Fuzzy Memories for wanting to attract attention to them because, let's face it, WGN's not doing anything that would make people want to check them out. They've devolved into nothing more than a poor man's TBS now. Possibly the dullest, most colorless "super" station out there. Pig Vomit and his merry band of vomiteers better wise up while they still have a station to be stingy with.
DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY FOOTAGE OF LOCAL CHICAGO TELEVISION FROM AROUND 1970?
Hi guys
I'm writing from the Donmar Warehouse theatre in the West End of London, UK. Details are at www.donmarwarehouse.com.
We're producing a play (SERENADING LOUIE) in February 2010 for which we urgently require authentic footage from local Chicago television from around 1970.
Ideally, we're looking for a chunk of unedited broadcast footage - so this could include local news, commercials, weather forecasts, local promotions, etc.
We're looking for about 5-15 minutes of footage - although we could edit some shorter sections together - and it should be as authentic as possible to the everyday broadcast of that place and period. Recording quality isn't the priority. And if you have shorter recordings then we'd still be interested in hearing from you.
If ANY of you guys have any recordings from the era, or know anyone who might do, we URGENTLY want to hear from you. You can contact me through my email: bendonmar@googlemail.com
Thanks and I hope very much to hear from you!